The Chosen Ones

Bugs, Help & Suggestions => Idea Factory => Topic started by: Skasian on November 01, 2011, 01:31:03 am


Title: Gold Balance
Post by: Skasian on November 01, 2011, 01:31:03 am
TCO is a campaign designed around a unique feature that no other game possesses. That is the 'Give Up' feature.

The currently problem is that to be able to afford the entire set of items you would need to play through the game entirely (1-7) at least 4 times on Normal difficulty to be able to experience all the items the game has to offer.

Arguably not everyone has the time nor wants to replay the same scenario that many times and thus it can be very disheartening for some players. Thus there has been discussion and we are currently looking at balancing the Gold system in the game.

Please place your vote and may the winning option be implemented :)
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Pourquoi on November 01, 2011, 09:18:16 am
I don't think constant gold income would be a good idea... Since in TCO there's no time restrain, you could go AFK and let gold pour into your bag infinitely, while checking every now and then to eat food.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Archangel Anzelayne on November 01, 2011, 10:20:03 am
The best way is more Gold accumulation across the levels. All creeps should give gold and the gold should be proportional to the level of the creep. That way we can earn very little in the beginning chapters but earn massive amounts of gold in the later chapters where there are creeps at level 40 and above.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on November 01, 2011, 01:19:15 pm
Before we go even further I'll not make "constant gold income". It's unrealistic and it doesn't work with RPGs. I like the way that player is unable to "farm" gold in a single chapter. If you want to "farm" use that "give up".
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Skasian on November 02, 2011, 12:16:37 am
One second thoughts I realised the flaw in the constant trickle of gold. There is a reason why I suggested it, let me explain:

--------------
The trickle of X commodity is a business model employed by games (mostly MMORPGs) with a focus on consumer hooking. It is a very effective method of holding on and potentially grabbing new customers. The idea is if you want the players to AFK farm that particular commodity. One musn't underestimate the power of subliminal marketing. You see say if you were to leave the game on during the day and you go about your daily business, there would always be the thought of your game in the back of your head generating you income. There is a huge advantage to having your customers constantly think about your game in any way possible, subliminally you are getting them addicted. Additionally when they come back to their computer, the first thing they see on their screen is the game still open. Guess what they will do the as the first task they get home, play your game! Compare this to without an AFK-farm idea, you'd come home, maybe take a shower or grab some food and open your computer to see a screen full of games that you can potentially choose from.
--------------

There is a bit more to it then that, but that is the summary of the idea behind the constant trickle, even though it may not work in the SP-RPG I hope you all learnt something about business (game) strategies  ;)  .

Back to GOLD BALANCING


I believe the key here is fixing the synthesis costs and fixing creeps to give more gold as the levels progress.

"Ah come on, just when it was going all nice and steady, I have to start over."

DD Canada sums it up with a very valid point. That is exactly how I felt the first time I played this campaign and was almost about to quit because of it, but didn't cause I love games too much. Others will definitely be feel this way and leave.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on November 02, 2011, 10:50:58 am
Yes, it certainly doesn't fit well with the theme, but then again, going for the "give up" over and over is like watching a movie again and again; depending on a person, and the movie, it might actually be better, or it can be horrible.

Isn't killing the same monsters same but even more simple?

So, at the moment you're forced to do give ups (excluding with Child's Play), but why wouldn't it be, that the campaign is completeable with every difficulty on the first attempt already?

When playing on Child's Play, Easy and Normal difficulties you should be able to complete the campaign without using Give Up.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 02, 2011, 12:33:07 pm
Hey i kind'a hav an ideea.Why don't we introduce jobs in the game :>?
Like for each ch...For ex , in ch1 Richard give you two quests , after/if you finish all of them there should be:
-Player enters Richards's yard ,there , the bodyguard says
  xHey , Phodom , I can pay you if you take care of the yard
  xMaybe , depends
  xI will pay you with x gold per crop , however every 5th crop will duble the first prize.Also every crop seed costs x:2
  xWhat do I have to do to the crop seeds?
  xYou have to place them somewhere , then take the item watter and use it to them.
  xThen?
  xWait @ 1 minute and the crop seed will turn into a crop , bring it to me and win your prize.While you wait , you can go to other crops
  xI will consider it.

And goes on , in ch 2 the barbarians might need some help
In ch3 the ghost might ask Galeoth to do something
In ch4 , the three dragon slayers , or the marcheant
In ch5 , the farmers
In ch6 the rezidents
In ch7 the guards


So what do you think?
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 02, 2011, 12:35:18 pm
OR , we can use the ''trade'' technique.Ch1 exemple:
You take some items from the shops in the town , you sell them 2 sir Richard / Orcs/Nathalie and you can buy something from them and sell it in the town.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 02, 2011, 01:07:18 pm
Hello,

Geez, when I suggested the jobs to be added in replace, you hop in and highlight that it was you who said it first. :D

Am I supposed 2 read every f*cking reply X(?
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Skasian on November 02, 2011, 07:37:13 pm
When playing on Child's Play, Easy and Normal difficulties you should be able to complete the campaign without using Give Up.

Child's Play yes, Easy yes... Normal maybe not.

Well there you have it Aero... pick your favourite idea and show us what you can do in 1.7 :)
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Archangel Anzelayne on November 03, 2011, 01:14:28 am
Such jobs would not only be tedious but also mindbogglingly boring. I suggest the gold income should be proportional to the difficulty level such that in harder difficulties you earn greator amounts of gold for the same tasks. I still think the best way would be to get gold by killing creeps...the higher the level of the creep the more the gold. That would keep the motivation for killing every creep in the level and should make the game much more fun to play with. And i beleive you could change the fixed price of some objects. Say create a trading object like grain sack or jewellery or whatever. Some shops should sell at more value and some shops at less so you can incur profit or loss selling different items at different places. You could make a new skill called trader that would help the player get profit.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: WsawW on November 03, 2011, 03:06:52 am
I hav an idea.. I prefer the guild golds.. jz like Final fantasy 7

Cause Phodom,Fradz and Galeoth are all dragon slayers.. therefore dragon slayers is a guild.. so they earn extra money and exp.. when they complete another dragons slayers quest (althought i havent finish playing the whole game [sorry T.T]) .. (too busy with school projects..tmrw last day of it YES !!!)

Example :
Chapter 4 (The Thing)
the quest was activated by getting an intro with the 3 dragon slayers. so upon finishing their quest. u gain extra money and exp.


Oh yeah. make optinal farming quest like kill all the enemies (type of enemies) to gain extra gold or exp

Thats my opinion .. i would like to see is it good enough or not ^^
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Skasian on November 03, 2011, 07:57:25 am
Either way we have:

 9 Votes so far for CHANGE
 2 Votes for NO CHANGE

Which I think is the entire active population of these forums sadly :P
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: WsawW on November 03, 2011, 08:24:50 am
Well.. we are not just fans.. we are dedicated fans X ;)
Anyway .. I usually don't like to give opinions  :)
But I think is a need of change.. i will vote ^^
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 03, 2011, 11:05:24 am
Such jobs would not only be tedious but also mindbogglingly boring. I suggest the gold income should be proportional to the difficulty level such that in harder difficulties you earn greator amounts of gold for the same tasks. I still think the best way would be to get gold by killing creeps...the higher the level of the creep the more the gold. That would keep the motivation for killing every creep in the level and should make the game much more fun to play with. And i beleive you could change the fixed price of some objects. Say create a trading object like grain sack or jewellery or whatever. Some shops should sell at more value and some shops at less so you can incur profit or loss selling different items at different places. You could make a new skill called trader that would help the player get profit.

Dude , the ideea of income is STUPID!I don't even know why Skasian would pick that(yeah , I'm with Aero so wut?).Think about it , you play in easy dificulty , you get to ch7 , you remain afk 3 hours , you return and you hav dozenz of gold.It's completely unbalanced.

Hello,

Archangel, which of the improvements do you actually find the best by gold gained per effectiviness ratio?

Oh and one thing (prepare for the worst):

PARAGRAPHS; PAARAAGRAAAPHS!
It's very uninspiring to read a long wall of text when there's no empty lines here and there. :P

At least someone hwo dared to say that.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Skasian on November 03, 2011, 01:22:11 pm
Black

I did retract my comment about implementing a gold system as I understand the flaw in it.

However if you did bother to read my post you would also understand why I suggested it in the first place, it's a business model for games and I merely suggested it based on principles of what works in the gaming industry for small scale games.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: WsawW on November 03, 2011, 01:29:46 pm
Guys.. lets no fight.. Anyway it is just opinions.. we can agree or disagree about it.. not nid to get so hot up for ntg right ?

Anyway ya i do agree that income is not a RPG element but more to DotA LoL and HoN type of games.. RPG is about player getting to understand the character he is using (understanding and help him or guide him to his future roles or ending).  There is a way to add income. However. Aero will hav to rmk a lot of things (the chapter that Phodom,Fradz and Galeoth meet each other).

Add a new quest of getting a permit to rejoin the Dragon Slayers guild or watever it is call and a lot of DS quest .Then they will get income base on how many quest they hav done for the Dragon Slayers.. This however will give Aero a lot of problems.

Disadventages
1. He will have to rmk from that chapter until the end of chapters .
2. Most people will not agree with it (personally i too)

Adventages
1.At least you hav to do something to get the income up
2. quest are limited (so it wont go unbalance)
3.Your golds are limited on the time you spend on the game (1 hour)

Example
ur income starts at 1 gold per minute. finish a DS quest u gain 1 gold on your income.
Total 5 quest = 6 gold per minute.
After one hour u stop gaining gold
Once you join the DS. All chapters you will start with 1 gold income and the timer starts ticking.
(so you will hav to do all the DS quest ASAP or not you will run out of time).

How's that ??@@
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: WsawW on November 03, 2011, 01:51:43 pm
Dude. thats just an example.. Just like Aero always say.. dont mind the balancing.. that i will do
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on November 04, 2011, 05:06:17 am
It's good to have different kind of opinions. However didn't I already say that the income idea is not a good idea? I won't add that idea.

Such jobs would not only be tedious but also mindbogglingly boring. I suggest the gold income should be proportional to the difficulty level such that in harder difficulties you earn greator amounts of gold for the same tasks. I still think the best way would be to get gold by killing creeps...the higher the level of the creep the more the gold. That would keep the motivation for killing every creep in the level and should make the game much more fun to play with.

So more gold depending on difficulty level? Well I'm not sure about this idea yet. Doesn't this just make harder difficulties easier?

Currently it's like enemy level x 1 gold.

And i beleive you could change the fixed price of some objects. Say create a trading object like grain sack or jewellery or whatever. Some shops should sell at more value and some shops at less so you can incur profit or loss selling different items at different places. You could make a new skill called trader that would help the player get profit.

Even if I think the most realistic way is to make some kind of "pick & sell" system where you get useless items that you can sell I think that's not a good thing for this game. The reason for this is because lack of inventory space. So no, no, no.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Archangel Anzelayne on November 04, 2011, 05:58:04 am
Yes on this matter, the lack of inventory space becomes big factor unfortunately. It would be better if such trade items stack on a counter like the flowers. I wouldn't call them useless items if the trader skill is implemented though! :P

And I havent played beyond Normal yet so I don't know whats in store in the harder difficulties, but i guess its pretty tough to beat the game even with the most imba items in the harder difficulties so a gold bonus should help in having to 'give up' less number of times. But i don't know, maybe its not a good idea.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 04, 2011, 09:23:33 am
Guys , think from Aero's eyes.He saw us fighting like midgets!Why to bother him cr8ting so many changes?Gold could be obtained in easyier ways such as leveling the gold gain from quests , monsters.It's no use creating a constant gold income , nor undoing all the item prices.

Maybe the campaign is good the way it is , after all , it is builded @ give up , so it's not that hard , just sell all your items then restart , keep doing that about 6 times and you'l have a milion.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 04, 2011, 01:26:32 pm
Hello,

Quote from: Blackdoom59
Maybe the campaign is good the way it is , after all , it is builded @ give up , so it's not that hard , just sell all your items then restart , keep doing that about 6 times and you'l have a milion.

Eww... But isn't the give up -option enabled once you pass chapter 4? Or do I confuse / recall wrong?

Hoo, but still... I can't help laughing at the "gold income" option which I and someone else voted for: Put your vote where your heart is. :D

Well yeah , in ch 1 get all the possible items for phodom , don't build synthies.At the end of the ch , seal them all , then you get BONUS gold from riddle question.In ch2 do the same , don't spend gold , same in ch3.Then in ch4 you just give up.It's easy and efficient , cuz a fully wide act like that(4 chapters) get you with 50k gold.Ofc you can gain more if you play till ch6 and sell all items after you rescue galeoth.

And riddle question should pay more then 5%.15-20% should do , and not only one honor point for the last question , @3 honor points.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 04, 2011, 01:31:51 pm
Hello,

Quote from: Blackdoom59
Maybe the campaign is good the way it is , after all , it is builded @ give up , so it's not that hard , just sell all your items then restart , keep doing that about 6 times and you'l have a milion.

Eww... But isn't the give up -option enabled once you pass chapter 4? Or do I confuse / recall wrong?

Hoo, but still... I can't help laughing at the "gold income" option which I and someone else voted for: Put your vote where your heart is. :D

Well yeah , in ch 1 get all the possible items for phodom , don't build synthies.At the end of the ch , seal them all , then you get BONUS gold from riddle question.In ch2 do the same , don't spend gold , same in ch3.Then in ch4 you just give up.It's easy and efficient , cuz a fully wide act like that(4 chapters) get you with 50k gold.Ofc you can gain more if you play till ch6 and sell all items after you rescue galeoth.

And riddle question should pay more then 5%.15-20% should do , and not only one honor point for the last question , @3 honor points.


YOU VOTED 4 IT?I hate you so much right nowX(
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Archangel Anzelayne on November 05, 2011, 01:48:12 am
Forcing a player to give up just to play properly is quite demotivating. Its good that the give up option is there because it increases the replayability of the game but doing so just for the sake of proper playthrough is a serious gameplay glitch. I understand nobody can start off at Extreme difficulty with 0 gold and expect to go anywhere and that is a good way of motivating players to play the harder difficulties with a give up. However, if the game doesnot offer its full potential to even Easy difficulty without at least 3 give ups (thats what happened to me) then its pretty stupid. I suggest the gold balance should either let us earn more at the easier difficulties so that we can slowly progress to the harder difficulties with give ups or let us earn more at the harder difficulties to motivate us to play them with less give ups.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 05, 2011, 03:09:52 am
Hello,

YOU VOTED 4 IT?I hate you so much right nowX(

Bleh... I put my vote where my heart is. And my heart was telling me to vote for crap at this time.

Come on, it's wonderful to expand the margin of error furthermore. :D

dude you ruined the chain quotes:((why didn't you quoted everything I said:((
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Skasian on November 05, 2011, 04:00:09 am
So more gold depending on difficulty level? Well I'm not sure about this idea yet. Doesn't this just make harder difficulties easier?

Currently it's like enemy level x 1 gold.


Wait WHAT? Harder difficulties DON'T get more gold ???  :S  Why the **** am I playing on anything other than easy then.

I thought it was blatantly obvious to make harder difficulties reward more gold as a reward for playing harder bosses etc, so I never suggested. But this is DEFINITELY the problem them. This is my vote hands down.

HARDER DIFFICULTY = More gold

And In regards to difficulty of the change, things like adding synthesis recipe costs to the items and reducing synthesis recipe is at max 60 changes (to all the recipe items) and all it involves is going to each item in the editor and changing the value. Not difficult, slightly tedious yes.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 05, 2011, 07:18:50 am
Hello,

dude you ruined the chain quotes:((why didn't you quoted everything I said:((

Haw-haw, when there's mayhem, there's inspiration. :) Now I just need more time.

Also, as a furthermore off-topic, thanks for URL:ing your signature links properly (although the perfect Phodom & Galeoth are broken, and that smiley spam annoys me >_<).

Thx captain obvious.I'l delete the broken smiles.And there's just no room for more then  3 urls.Any ideea?
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on November 05, 2011, 12:56:18 pm
Okay I'm now confused. What are we gonna do to this case?
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 05, 2011, 12:58:47 pm
Okay I'm now confused. What are we gonna do to this case?

IMO , nothing.It's good the way it is.Maybe only some minor changes @ the item prices and gold drop from items/monster
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 05, 2011, 02:26:08 pm
Hello,

Okay I'm now confused. What are we gonna do to this case?



IMO , nothing.It's good the way it is.Maybe only some minor changes @ the item prices and gold drop from items/monster

Or then just allow players to open lucky boxes twice. :D


That would be unrealistic.
A wizzard did it.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Skasian on November 05, 2011, 10:25:11 pm
Aero, it's up to you, but it's clear that the majority are looking for some sort of change in the form of buffing the system so there is more gold around.

You are the sole creator so it's your say, do what makes you feel happy, we have all voted our opinions for you to choose from.  :)
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on November 06, 2011, 02:16:37 am
Aero, it's up to you, but it's clear that the majority are looking for some sort of change in the form of buffing the system so there is more gold around.

You are the sole creator so it's your say, do what makes you feel happy, we have all voted our opinions for you to choose from.  :)

Yeah , we cannot help you involuntary.
It's your campaing.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: noal on December 02, 2011, 10:02:11 am
Why not make the item that are "unnecessary" for set and synthesis (in Skasian item set guide they are call "useless drop you can sell" even though many are more imba than set) to be able to sell for higher prices, for example 2 times the normal items with same property. Or make more of them than now. By that way players will happily throw them away to be able to chase their ultimate end-game stuffs
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on December 05, 2011, 08:03:51 am
Why not make the item that are "unnecessary" for set and synthesis (in Skasian item set guide they are call "useless drop you can sell" even though many are more imba than set) to be able to sell for higher prices, for example 2 times the normal items with same property. Or make more of them than now. By that way players will happily throw them away to be able to chase their ultimate end-game stuffs


This , once again , is unrealistic.
You say something like:
A:I sold a legendary burning with ice sword for 5 gold.
B:Nothing , I found a sh*t  on the road and  I sold it for 10 gold!

How do does that sounds?Useless drops have a low price because they are useless.But the fact remains that every player wants ultimate end-game stuff.

Name one "useless" item is STRONGER then a set/synthesis.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: noal on December 05, 2011, 12:00:23 pm


Name one "useless" item is STRONGER then a set/synthesis.

Yes there is, even though not much as I thought, but yes. For example Shard of Shadow, or Nether Staff. Shard of Shadow with decent dps and moreover %steal chance, Nether Staff with slow opponent and %magic damage, they are items that I find more useful than many sets/synthesis, especially when I have not used any give up to afford those fancy end-game stuffs at mid-game chapters

About the item price, if it 's unrealistic then how about make "useless drop" drop more? Implement more of them in the game? Make Gladiator or Axe rain, maybe?
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on December 06, 2011, 04:10:39 am
Some of those items can be really good at that point of game but eventually become **** if there are no way to upgrade it to item set or synthesis.

And I still haven't decided how I'm gonna solve this problem.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Doomlord on December 06, 2011, 05:31:08 am
Why don't you make some kind of trading system for those items ? Trading those items for an item set part that the player is missing for example. Or maybe you can just increase their selling prices.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on December 06, 2011, 09:56:34 am
Why don't you make some kind of trading system for those items ? Trading those items for an item set part that the player is missing for example.

That is a verry good ideea doomlord.This could be added to the Black Market


Quote
Or maybe you can just increase their selling prices.
UNREALISTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Pourquoi on December 06, 2011, 10:57:18 pm
Quote
UNREALISTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC
Why bother? A wizard did it.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on December 07, 2011, 03:50:37 am
I have to remind myself what was the problem. The problem was that you guys think the campaign doesn't give enough gold.

What if I double the gold given from enemies?
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Pourquoi on December 07, 2011, 04:34:28 am
Hmm... So it's like... around 1000-2000 extra gold per chapter? Barely enough for a single high-end synthesis item.
Though I have to repeat that the synthesis recipe costs are a little too high. Should be reduced.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on December 07, 2011, 05:10:34 am
So... Should the best items costs less or just more gold?
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on December 14, 2011, 10:46:51 am
Hey I hav another ideea.What about proffesions give money?

Like digger  , everytime the user digs he gains x gold(x means how manny time has the user digged before and how much dig power he has)
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on December 14, 2011, 02:41:25 pm
Hello,

Hey I hav another ideea.What about proffesions give money?

Like digger  , everytime the user digs he gains x gold(x means how manny time has the user digged before and how much dig power he has)

Too late, it already exists in the form of some digging sites containing gold coins.

Then we can just remove coins?Is that so hard?
And I only gave the example of digging.

It could work with every steal gives gold and every potion gives gold.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Pourquoi on December 14, 2011, 06:03:33 pm
Of these three, only the second one (stealing gives gold) makes sense, thematically.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on December 16, 2011, 03:48:07 pm
I've decided. All the synthesis recipes will from now on cost half of the original price.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Blackdoom59 on December 18, 2011, 05:58:46 am
I've decided. All the synthesis recipes will from now on cost half of the original price.
xD.It will be way easier now  ::)
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Pourquoi on December 18, 2011, 09:15:17 am
Good. Now just make monsters give more gold and it's fine.
Title: Re: Gold Balance
Post by: Aeroblyctos on December 23, 2011, 10:51:33 am
Great. We'll see how this goes... Thead closed and removed from "sticky".