The Chosen Ones

Bugs, Help & Suggestions => Idea Factory => Topic started by: Aeroblyctos on April 14, 2011, 09:52:19 am


Title: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on April 14, 2011, 09:52:19 am
Hey.

I think the current attack / armor types sucks. I mean they are at the moment "paper scissors rock" which doesn't work with single-player RPGs.

Do you have a better idea for attack and armor types?

The idea can be simple. For example one idea is that all Light Armors reduce 10% of all damage, while medium will 15% and large 20%.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: phasekill on April 14, 2011, 10:45:33 pm
I peronally dont have a problem with how uve done the atk/armor system, uve gone to the effort to find new icons are rescale the dmg types that i see on each character, and for each hero i beleive it is different, fradz pierce, galeoth magic, and phodom blunt isnt it. i like it
i culd probaably think of ways to improve it but not right now at work :P the armor culd be varied a bit, havent played the latest version, possible ideas for bosses they could have alternate armor and atk dmg, like how archeon has that baby dmg thing, thts pretty cool
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on April 16, 2011, 05:47:41 am
Aha. Well.

What about this idea:

The damage reductions are against all type of attacks.

Unarmored = 0% damage reduction
Light = 5% damage reduction
Medium = 10% damage reduction
Heavy = 15% damage reduction
X = 25% damage reduction

Then of course if units have armor numbers they are counted as well.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: overlord1994 on April 16, 2011, 07:05:35 am
nahh....first things first:YOU ROCK-continue doing what you are doing.now lets get back to theme...i like the old way of armor and attack (paper-scisor-blabla) but yeah as this first post guy said you could just make new armor and attack type for bosses,semi bosses,some really strong creatures,etc. (btw i saw a spelling mistake-when answering riddle question chapter 2 it asks where is source of STORNG river,just make it into STRONG :PPP)
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on April 16, 2011, 11:19:39 am
Okay. More options?

It's very easy to actually change the attack / armor system so that's not an "obstacle".
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Tears on April 16, 2011, 12:55:56 pm
Bah, I like the old way than the new one you have just suggest.

The new one just like there is only 1 type of attack and 1 type of armor. And damage reducetion is just like a ... kombat king.

Expand the old one instead, from Paper-Scissor-Rock to Metal-Wood-Water-Fire-Earth..

I like the system like in Element TD.
You get extra damage from some types of attacks and reduce damage from some types of attack. Your old one is that system.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: pl4ton on April 17, 2011, 01:35:24 am
Hey.

I think the current attack / armor types sucks. I mean they are at the moment "paper scissors rock" which doesn't work with single-player RPGs.

to be honest, i have to agree  ;D

I dont even get the point why u changed the old system. people expecting heroes to have hero armor and hero attack. It doesnt matter what the ennemy got as long as the player know what their armor class provides. and besides, who actually studies the ennemy armor in the game? I just attacked whatever came in my way and killed it  ;D

I think the current system is just not balanced. Phodom is the best example: his armor class get bonus damage from ennemy spells, so it rly rly  hurts when mini/elite/epic bosses cast their high damage spells - and he should be the tank of the group.

On the other hand, bosses have this different kind of armor aswell. So in every fight, one of the 3 heroes does less damage then the other. Lets say the boss got an armor class that reduces Damage from magic attacks, then most of the burden lies on Fradz since he is the only char with decent dps.


So here is my suggestion:

Give the heros back what they deserve - Hero Armor and Hero Attack! They are special and not like usual creeps + u would remove the randomness.

Second, if u feel that it would be too easy then to kill high bosses, then add u still can add an extra armor class for them (e.g. Divine Armor - reduces every kind of Attack), or add some passive abilities like magic reduction or physical reduction. Same goes with creeps, but i think the standard wc3 system is good enough.

I think that way could save u a lot of time to do other things.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on April 17, 2011, 01:36:03 pm
Hey.

I think the current attack / armor types sucks. I mean they are at the moment "paper scissors rock" which doesn't work with single-player RPGs.

to be honest, i have to agree  ;D

I dont even get the point why u changed the old system. people expecting heroes to have hero armor and hero attack. It doesnt matter what the ennemy got as long as the player know what their armor class provides. and besides, who actually studies the ennemy armor in the game? I just attacked whatever came in my way and killed it  ;D

I think the current system is just not balanced. Phodom is the best example: his armor class get bonus damage from ennemy spells, so it rly rly  hurts when mini/elite/epic bosses cast their high damage spells - and he should be the tank of the group.

On the other hand, bosses have this different kind of armor aswell. So in every fight, one of the 3 heroes does less damage then the other. Lets say the boss got an armor class that reduces Damage from magic attacks, then most of the burden lies on Fradz since he is the only char with decent dps.


So here is my suggestion:

Give the heros back what they deserve - Hero Armor and Hero Attack! They are special and not like usual creeps + u would remove the randomness.

Second, if u feel that it would be too easy then to kill high bosses, then add u still can add an extra armor class for them (e.g. Divine Armor - reduces every kind of Attack), or add some passive abilities like magic reduction or physical reduction. Same goes with creeps, but i think the standard wc3 system is good enough.

I think that way could save u a lot of time to do other things.

And that's something like I'm suggesting at the moment:

- I'll let stay Phodom, Fradz and Galeoth's armors and attack types.
- I'll let stay most of the enemies armor(maybe change some of their to even higher tiers)
- I'll let everyone's attack types stay.
- Only thing I'm gonna change is that all attack types do same damage to specific armors.
- But why the hell there is then different attack types? Well I guess my idea isn't perfect either.

Unarmored = 100% damage taken
Light = 95% damage taken
Medium = 90% damage taken
Heavy = 85% damage taken
X = 75% damage taken
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: phasekill on April 17, 2011, 07:28:51 pm
I think the reason why there is different attack types is too let each enemy or character deal bonus damage against other enemies and stuff, you sort of have like an idea with phodom blunt fradz pierce etc... Except i never bother to look at creep or boss atk dmg tbh. I personally found that a simple system that really worked was the TBR2.0.
give each of your heroes differnt attack types which is nice but when it comes to bosses they have a Divine Armor, he reprogrammed this so all physcial/magic dmg was reduced by 95%, i think? and then armor value reduced this further. Of course, this number wouldnt work for the game, but somehow reconfiguring bosses to be tougher, especially on **** with something like this could be a challenge, its also just a nice unique feature instead of stock standard hero attack and hero armor... which is BORING!
Boss unique attack types was almost always set to chaos, i think i saw archeons dmg, it had a baby picture, something similiar for high tier elite epic bosses to perhaps?
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: EndlessPain on April 17, 2011, 10:12:09 pm
How about you just make for each dificulty the monsters get a higher tier armour? something like


-childsplay/easy= 100% damage taken
-normal= 95% damage taken
-hard= 90%% damage taken
-extreme= 85% damage taken
-****= 80% damage taken

also this is just a suggestion if u want to change the system.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Pourquoi on April 17, 2011, 11:44:09 pm
Quote
Boss unique attack types was almost always set to chaos, i think i saw archeons dmg, it had a baby picture, something similiar for high tier elite epic bosses to perhaps?
That baby picture represents the attack type of friendly NPCs. Who never get to attack at all.
BTW, the current sytem, I think, is fine.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Tears on April 18, 2011, 04:45:50 am
Quote
Boss unique attack types was almost always set to chaos, i think i saw archeons dmg, it had a baby picture, something similiar for high tier elite epic bosses to perhaps?
That baby picture represents the attack type of friendly NPCs. Who never get to attack at all.
BTW, the current sytem, I think, is fine.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: phasekill on April 18, 2011, 09:24:47 pm
I peronally dont have a problem with how uve done the atk/armor system, uve gone to the effort to find new icons are rescale the dmg types that i see on each character, and for each hero i beleive it is different, fradz pierce, galeoth magic, and phodom blunt isnt it. i like it

Personally, thats how i felt in the first place, its unique enough to make it perfectly fine imo. BUt if everyone is so intent to change it :(
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on April 24, 2011, 04:49:23 am
I can't change the values in the game so that difficulty idea cannot be done.

One idea could be using elementals.

Attack types:

Normal
Fire
Lightning
Ice
Darkness

Armor types:

Normal
Fire
Lightning
Ice
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: phasekill on April 24, 2011, 04:55:04 am
That could be cool, but if your doing armor, can you add like Enscaled, or something cool for the dragon bosses, or just simply a boss armor which negates further values? :)
With the attack, elemental damage be cool if u culd give like a tiny sfx upon every hit, aka a small burst of fire, and electrictiy?
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on April 24, 2011, 09:21:00 am
Actually I don't see that this could work except if player could actually change attack types. Then this would be tactical.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Tears on April 24, 2011, 10:02:54 am
I agree with the element armor. They fit better with the campaign because all characters have their element, bosses and dragons also have element (I remember you said about Ice dragon, Fire dragon, Emerald dragon..)
And of course it's more more tactical.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: phasekill on April 24, 2011, 07:55:12 pm
Quote
I agree with the element armor. They fit better with the campaign because all characters have their element, bosses and dragons also have element (I remember you said about Ice dragon, Fire dragon, Emerald dragon..)
Thats what i was thinking about the bosses themselves, just for a realisms sake and it could be pretty cool :)

Quote
Actually I don't see that this could work except if player could actually change attack types. Then this would be tactical.
Mayhap this is true; but considering our 3 players we would naturally have fire, ice and lightning? The player would at least control each attack type. Perhaps, and this makes no realistic sense, but in some boss fights you could add a building like a totem/shrine or something that when attacked briefly empowers the attacker with a different element for like a minute. Its kinda random.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on June 29, 2011, 04:42:22 am
Hey everyone.

I'm still searching for a correct answer to Attack and Armor types. Something must be done to them.

So if anyone has any great ideas please share them with me.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Tears on June 29, 2011, 08:32:12 pm
Now in this topic there are 2 main ideas: one is Paper-Scissor-Rock type (Element Armor and Attack), and one is damage reduce type (Hero Armor and Hero Attack).

If you are not sactified enough then try combine them.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on June 30, 2011, 03:58:01 am
What about no attack & armor types?
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: LucasMapurunga on July 01, 2011, 03:44:14 pm
First of all, hello.

Well, attack and armor types work well for warcraft 3 and strategy games, where the balance of different units make the difference.

Now, look to TCO. We have 3 heroes, the 3 of them with different attack types, which means they will do different damage to different armors. I guess this is not the best. Why?

Cause if you put, for example, Fradz, as your main DPS, and then for some weird reason there's a boss with Light armor (that for some WEIRDER reason is strong against slashing), then the damage is reduced...

Most RPG games use physical and magic attack, not different type of physicals. It's less realist, but easier too balance, I guess.

Elemental, as someone said in this topic, is a good thing, but it don't solve the question (unless equips change the attack type)...

So I guess we could revive the old system (that was good) or just keep this one (that is good, too) but making some changes...

Senseless, I guess  :o , but if there's a change to be done, the change has to be significative... otherwise, I think its best to keep this system...

btw : why slashing is weak against light armor ?  :P
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on July 02, 2011, 07:22:26 am
I don't remember anymore. What was the old system?

And I don't remember anymore about why Slashing is good against Light. Probably because every attack type needed to be good against something.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on July 07, 2011, 05:17:59 am
Hahaa, double post. What do you think about this idea:

Attack types:

Blunt(physical)
Sharp(physical)
Magical(magic)

Armor types:

Light - Takes 100% damage from physical attacks and 60% from Magic.
Medium - Takes 80% damage from physical attacks and 80% from Magic.
Heavy - Takes 60% damage from physical attacks and 100% from Magic.
Sturdy - Takes 25% damage from physical attacks and 100% from Magic.
Elemental - Takes 100% damage from physical attacks and 25% from Magic.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Witardo on July 17, 2011, 11:28:09 pm
I think the current system is fine, just need to be improved further like making an armor/attack type for gigantic creatures (a hammer like Phodom's deal blunt yeah, but a colossal creature's punch sounds more like siege attack-type). All attack-types should have strenghts and weakness they just need to have sense like a Blunt deals more damage to Heavy than a Slash since you can barely cut through a plate mail but a bash in your chest still hurts whatever armor you wear, Blunt weakness sound like small creatures or "bodyless" like a sludge.

The fact this campaign does not use that innecesary hero attack/armor-type is one of the things that make it more sexy, I agree they are not just normal persons but, isn't that going for bosses too? We're not talking about a melee map, we're talking about a whole "new world" where everything is possible but greatly close to the eralism of reality, a hammer, a sword, and a bolt out of a mage's finger will not deal same thing to everything.

For the ones that complain about "X hero is weak against Y boss", did you notice you control 3 heroes? Make them work as a team, if you manage to complement one's weakness with other's strenght, they will work as if you had 1 over-powered hero.
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Blackdoom59 on July 18, 2011, 02:46:08 pm
Blunt-75% to medium . 100% to heavy . 125% to light , 5% to divine
Slashing-125% to medium, 75% to heavy 100%  to light , 5% to divine
Magical-100% to medium , 125% to heavy 75% to light , 5% to divine
Chaos-100% to all armor types
Spells-100% to medium , 105% to heavy , 95% to light , 80% to divine and bonuses depending on the specified element.

Medium-75% from blunt , 125% from slashing , 100% from magical , 100% from chaos
Heavy-100% from blunt , 75% from slashing , 125% from magical , 100% from chaos
Light-125% from blunt , 100% from slashing , 75% from magical , 100% from chaos
Divine-5% from blunt , slashing , magical.150% from chaos




Fire-10% bonus against heavy , 20% bonus against medium , 30% bonus against light
Ice-20% bonus against heavy , 30% bonus against medium , 10% bonus against light
Lightning-30% bonus against heavy , 10% bonus against medium , 20% bonus against light
Darkness-50% bonus against heavy , 0% bonus against medium ,15% bonus against light
Holy- 25% bonus against heavy , 0% bonus against medium ,50% bonus against light
Arcane(non elemental)-0% bonus against heavy , medium , light , 60% bonus against divine
Sounds good? ;D
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Witardo on July 18, 2011, 03:52:45 pm
That need some common sense.

Blunt-75% to medium . 100% to heavy . 125% to light , 5% to divine
Slashing-125% to medium, 75% to heavy 100%  to light , 5% to divine
Magical-100% to medium , 125% to heavy 75% to light , 5% to divine
Chaos-100% to all armor types
Spells-100% to medium , 105% to heavy , 95% to light , 80% to divine and bonuses depending on the specified element.

Medium-75% from blunt , 125% from slashing , 100% from magical , 100% from chaos
Heavy-100% from blunt , 75% from slashing , 125% from magical , 100% from chaos
Light-125% from blunt , 100% from slashing , 75% from magical , 100% from chaos
Divine-5% from blunt , slashing , magical.150% from chaos

This part: You see what I mean? A complete nerf for physical classes, there should not be such a thing like divine armor, maybe "Dragonscale" which takes lower damage from all attack types, but making it lower than 50% why? Just make the boss have more HP.
This one: I would swap those, a Slash deals more damage to light armors while blunt could get more benefit from breaking through a medium armor.

Fire-10% bonus against heavy , 20% bonus against medium , 30% bonus against light
Ice-20% bonus against heavy , 30% bonus against medium , 10% bonus against light
Lightning-30% bonus against heavy , 10% bonus against medium , 20% bonus against light
Darkness-50% bonus against heavy , 0% bonus against medium ,15% bonus against light
Holy- 25% bonus against heavy , 0% bonus against medium ,50% bonus against light
Arcane(non elemental)-0% bonus against heavy , medium , light , 60% bonus against divine

Just pair of things here, like
 - Lightning should have bonus against medium and weak to light.
 - Ice bonus for light and weak to heavy.
 - Fire bonus to heavy and weak to medium.
 - Arcane no bonus and no weakness.

For darkness and holy can't say, every gamer has a different thinking about those and last word is for Aero, but let me give sense to what I said. Think about what those armors are, Light is Cloth, the prefered by mages for mobility, which doesn't keep them warm enough and can't hold a sharpened shard of ice, but it hasn't been invented yet a Cloth that helps electricity. Medium armor should be the kind of Leather which makes semi-conductor while is fire-proof. Heavy is the kind of Scales and Plates, think about a reptile, they have cold-blood they can live in any cold place but if you wear any kind of metal, you will LOVE to have a drink after getting out of an over-heated heavy junk.

Sounds good? ;D

Overall good work ;) .
Title: Re: Attack/Armor Types
Post by: Aeroblyctos on July 19, 2011, 03:05:26 pm
I was thinking back then element type of attacks. But I feel like they are only for spells, not for basic attacks. Back then I was also thinking about system where you could change your attack element to make the battles even more tactical. This however never was done because my friend never finished the system for me. I withdraw from the system and wanted to keep everything simple, but not as they currently are.

So... I think I don't need to say more.  Sorry guys, but I actually believe that the system I already created and added to the campaign is actually good enough.

After the next version comes, and if you're not satisfied about my idea come then tell me about it and we can discuss. For now I'll keep the current system and just try to make the next version soon as possible.

Thanks for your input. The thread is now closed.