The Chosen Ones

Bugs, Help & Suggestions => Idea Factory => Simple Questions => Topic started by: Pourquoi on January 16, 2013, 06:28:30 am


Title: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on January 16, 2013, 06:28:30 am
Another subject about which I talked with Aero recently.
I think the word 'morality' does not fit the current concept in the campaign.
Basically, 'morality' means either:
- Recognition of the distinction between good and evil or between right and wrong; respect for and obedience to the rules of right conduct; the mental disposition or characteristic of behaving in a manner intended to produce morally good results.
- A set of social rules, customs, traditions, beliefs, or practices which specify proper, acceptable forms of conduct.
I think neither of these 2 meanings truly fit the campaign concept. Aero believes otherwise.
So, we are here, awaiting the for the wisdom of the members again.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on March 28, 2013, 10:23:19 am
well you see, i never actually found out what morality is for anyways. does it just display the characters way of decisionmaking or do i actually benefit from having a high or low morale? does it influence the gameplay somehow? items i can get etc?

because if it doesnt, remove it completely or introduce the morality system to the player and give more opportunitys to get/lose morality. like the first time you can change your morality is the archmage in chp1. i killed him and lost morality and then i was like "oh, i hope thats not bad". then in chp4 i lost morality again and i just prayed to xyrzious that it wouldnt influence me in a bad way.

so what i think is: you either make it influence the game in a very visible way through quests and items and conversations/interludes, or you just remove it entirely.
also, morality is a good word and i wouldnt change it because as of right now, it doesnt display the HEROES morality but rather the players. sure phodom isnt a murderer and manslayer, but i the **** am, hell yeah. i killed those orcs, all of them. ****!
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: liauyuancheng on March 28, 2013, 11:31:08 am
What's morality for? I dont see its impact in the game. Btw I have -4 now HAHAHA
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on March 28, 2013, 12:11:42 pm
you are a bad person and you should feel bad!
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: liauyuancheng on March 29, 2013, 12:09:51 pm
Lol haha I sorry ;) but I always tried to maximize items and gold gained so too bad for my 'morality'
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Shinokyofu on March 29, 2013, 04:24:52 pm
Even though there are the honor points already, i think the morality in this case is something similar to honor. A true honored knight, for example, would not kill someone just because he wants to. Another possiblity would be   sanctity, in another words, how good (saint) of a person you are. Virtue is another possilibity, and there are many others...

Lol haha I sorry ;) but I always tried to maximize items and gold gained so too bad for my 'morality'

Nah, there aren't that many difference in the items for choosing the dark side(they have cookies though).

The morality has impact later in the game if i'm not wrong, unlocking different endings and/or cinematics and such.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on March 30, 2013, 12:38:12 am
well you see, i never actually found out what morality is for anyways. does it just display the characters way of decisionmaking or do i actually benefit from having a high or low morale? does it influence the gameplay somehow? items i can get etc?

because if it doesnt, remove it completely or introduce the morality system to the player and give more opportunitys to get/lose morality. like the first time you can change your morality is the archmage in chp1. i killed him and lost morality and then i was like "oh, i hope thats not bad". then in chp4 i lost morality again and i just prayed to xyrzious that it wouldnt influence me in a bad way.

so what i think is: you either make it influence the game in a very visible way through quests and items and conversations/interludes, or you just remove it entirely.
also, morality is a good word and i wouldnt change it because as of right now, it doesnt display the HEROES morality but rather the players. sure phodom isnt a murderer and manslayer, but i the **** am, hell yeah. i killed those orcs, all of them. ****!
I think you're seriously misunderstanding the word. Please consult your dictionary again.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on March 30, 2013, 09:06:21 pm
well you see, i never actually found out what morality is for anyways. does it just display the characters way of decisionmaking or do i actually benefit from having a high or low morale? does it influence the gameplay somehow? items i can get etc?

because if it doesnt, remove it completely or introduce the morality system to the player and give more opportunitys to get/lose morality. like the first time you can change your morality is the archmage in chp1. i killed him and lost morality and then i was like "oh, i hope thats not bad". then in chp4 i lost morality again and i just prayed to xyrzious that it wouldnt influence me in a bad way.

so what i think is: you either make it influence the game in a very visible way through quests and items and conversations/interludes, or you just remove it entirely.
also, morality is a good word and i wouldnt change it because as of right now, it doesnt display the HEROES morality but rather the players. sure phodom isnt a murderer and manslayer, but i the **** am, hell yeah. i killed those orcs, all of them. ****!
I think you're seriously misunderstanding the word. Please consult your dictionary again.

i did and it saith its what i thought it was, so you probably missread something in my post?
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on March 30, 2013, 09:23:31 pm
Which dictionary are you using? Can you post the entry for the word here?
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on March 31, 2013, 05:28:18 am
i use www.dict.cc (http://www.dict.cc) and wikipedia, you can look up the entry yourself
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on March 31, 2013, 09:02:53 am
Wikipedia said:
Quote
Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong).
Which is different from the campaign concept, which reflects on how the player's actions and choices conform to morality, and is not morality itself.
So I think the word is misused in the campaign.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Jaelbird on March 31, 2013, 11:00:05 am
voted for no coz there is no suggested replacement - would like to hear first what else it should be as it could end up being just about anything, from something genius to something stupid
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on March 31, 2013, 04:07:17 pm
Wikipedia said:
Quote
Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong).
Which is different from the campaign concept, which reflects on how the player's actions and choices conform to morality, and is not morality itself.
So I think the word is misused in the campaign.

well its simple. in the world of balgaron, there is a set morality which saith you shall not lie, shall not kill and shall not do other "bad" stuff very similar to our own western social system.
if you have morality at zero, you are very close to the norm of the majority. if you have positive morality rating, it means that your own concept of morality has higher standards than the average balgaron morality. if it has negative value, it means you set lower standards for yourself. it doesnt reflect phodoms view of morality though, but only the players, since phodom never feels good after having decreased his morality value like slaying the archmage, while i actually think that fucker deserves it ; )

as you see, it fits pretty good. and its also a cool word and like totally underused. no other rpg i know uses that.

oh and because your main argument is that it doesnt fit the campaign: doesnt THIS

"Recognition of the distinction between good and evil or between right and wrong; respect for and obedience to the rules of right conduct; the mental disposition or characteristic of behaving in a manner intended to produce morally good results."

fit the campaign like a glass-shoe? i mean its like all about phodom being torn apart by his thirst for vengeance but also his kind heart, grief and lonelyness. i think his monologue after chp1 epicboss reflects perfectly why its so fitting.

its a concept that fits phodom, but as i said, its not phodoms own morality being displayed since he doesnt change his personality according to the players decisions but rather its the players morality contradicting with phodoms. thats what makes it so interesting.

what would you change it to? "reputation" ? its not really his reputation though since its really just whats going on in his heart and not what people say about him. if you have -4 morality, you are still the kind-hearted protector. its his inner conflict, not on the outside.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: liauyuancheng on April 01, 2013, 02:46:09 am
Lol haha I sorry ;) but I always tried to maximize items and gold gained so too bad for my 'morality'

Nah, there aren't that many difference in the items for choosing the dark side(they have cookies though).


? I beg to differ. In chapter 1, if you kill the epic boss, you can get a staff which is a part of a synthesis item that gives alot of magic dmg :) And you can get alot more money by killing the minons and selling all the random items in the huts. In chapter 5, if you kill the Gazas, you can get alot more money and steal Amulet of (something) which can be sold for quite a profit. And you get to kill another miniboss :D Basically, if u choose the dark side, u potentially can get much more money to spend. yay!

Anyway, I prefer if we throw suggestions on what words to use to replace morality because I cant think of any good substitute yet. xD
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on April 01, 2013, 06:12:04 am
Quote
In chapter 5, if you kill the Gazas, you can get alot more money and steal Amulet of (something) which can be sold for quite a profit. And you get to kill another miniboss
If you haven't noticed, you can also get an Amulet of Great Life if you do not kill the Kaza Leader too. It's just more... obscure. Oh, and he's also not counted as a miniboss.
Quote
if you have morality at zero, you are very close to the norm of the majority. if you have positive morality rating, it means that your own concept of morality has higher standards than the average balgaron morality. if it has negative value, it means you set lower standards for yourself.
Morality is an objective concept independent of the values or mores held by any particular peoples or cultures. I think the campaign concept is more like how you do conform to morality.
Quote
no other rpg i know uses that.
Because it's not the right word, it'd seem.
Quote
what would you change it to?
Honour. Karma. Chivalry. Benevolence.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: liauyuancheng on April 01, 2013, 10:40:36 am
Quote
In chapter 5, if you kill the Gazas, you can get alot more money and steal Amulet of (something) which can be sold for quite a profit. And you get to kill another miniboss
If you haven't noticed, you can also get an Amulet of Great Life if you do not kill the Kaza Leader too. It's just more... obscure. Oh, and he's also not counted as a miniboss.

Ohhhh I see.. Is it by talking to him and clicking all options? Cant really remember if I did get something out of it....
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on April 01, 2013, 12:41:57 pm
Quote
Morality is an objective concept independent of the values or mores held by any particular peoples or cultures. I think the campaign concept is more like how you do conform to morality.

uhm no. you know there also is the word "immorality" which means... the opposite, obviously?

thing is, the word "Morality" itself probably has no value attached to it naturally, but since every person has its own view of it, you can consider the opinion on morality of the majority as the given standard in a certain population.

honestly, i dont see where the word is not fitting. even the wikipedia article you quoted yourself saith the exact same thing as myself.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on April 01, 2013, 06:02:42 pm
Quote
Morality is an objective concept independent of the values or mores held by any particular peoples or cultures. I think the campaign concept is more like how you do conform to morality.

uhm no. you know there also is the word "immorality" which means... the opposite, obviously?
But they are not polar opposites. 'Immorality' has more uses.
Quote
thing is, the word "Morality" itself probably has no value attached to it naturally, but since every person has its own view of it, you can consider the opinion on morality of the majority as the given standard in a certain population.
You're right. I'm too. In fact, both of us are. 'Morality' can be both objective and subjective, but since the word is too nuanced, I don't think it should be used, as it can be confusing.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Shinokyofu on April 01, 2013, 08:25:56 pm
You know, Porquoi, the sufixe "Im" in this situation means exactly the opposite. I voted that it should change and everything, but if you could use Immorality in the game contest(according to what you said), you could use Morality as well. If it's not the case I would like to know why.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on April 02, 2013, 12:30:55 am
You know, Porquoi, the sufixe "Im" in this situation means exactly the opposite. I voted that it should change and everything, but if you could use Immorality in the game contest(according to what you said), you could use Morality as well. If it's not the case I would like to know why.
I can say 'You're immoral!', but definitely not 'You're moral.', because it's simply not correct.
Now, extend this to their nominal derivatives. If Aero used 'Immorality' for the TCO concept (as like how immoral you are) and multiplied all the numbers by -1, then it could probably work, but 'Morality' is simply incorrect.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Jaelbird on April 02, 2013, 01:59:42 am
I can say 'You're immoral!', but definitely not 'You're moral.', because it's simply not correct.
^ 100% agree to this
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on April 02, 2013, 06:20:36 am
what if i told you you CAN actually say "you are moral" or "that person is very moral"?

WHAT IF I TOLD YOU? and yes, its true, you can say that.

or we could just change the word to "badassness" to please everyone without exceptions.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on April 02, 2013, 08:45:39 am
I never saw anyone using 'moral' that way. Yourself not included. Please provide some proof.
Maybe it's a rare usage, but even if it was actually correct, it'd still be too rare to not confuse people.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Shinokyofu on April 02, 2013, 11:31:18 am
"if you are virtuous, you are moral." This is just some random sentence that i found in the web. In my language, the words are similar and, like you said, no one says "you're moral" or "am I moral?". BUT it's not incorrect, and since the meanings are equal(the only difference is the language itself) it should be correct in english too. Like you say it's just probably too rare, and well, perphaps it could be changed to something better.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on April 02, 2013, 04:24:54 pm
ive never seen anyone slay dragons. lets take them out too. lets also take out magic.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on April 02, 2013, 06:03:56 pm
ive never seen anyone slay dragons. lets take them out too. lets also take out magic.
Let's imagine you wrote a work of speculative fiction not based on reality. And thus there'd be such things like magic, dragons, FTL travel, etc... Since it's not based on reality, it's fine.
However, if you wrote it in an existing language and you decided to invent a new word (or a new meaning of an existing word) to refer to something already present in reality, then you'd be obviously criticised, as it derails from the original language. Made-up and wrongly-used words have absolutely zero value in works of fiction.
Apply this to the 'morality' word here.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on April 03, 2013, 04:42:33 pm
lets give all items english names then. or just replace morality with "nangjibble" and "Luck" with "unipaluma" because why not
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on April 04, 2013, 12:16:04 am
You didn't notice one thing. Morality is a concept existing in reality. The items in the game don't, so you can call them whatever you want.
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: CoNteMpT on April 04, 2013, 05:00:05 am
then when it exists in reality and is exactly that the game tells you it is, why change it?
Title: Re: Should we replace the word 'morality'?
Post by: Pourquoi on April 04, 2013, 08:07:58 am
Unfortunately, it isn't.
Or are you confusing morality with ethics? Ethics are subjective and vary from person to person, but morality is static; you cannot change it.
Overall, your arguments are becoming weaker and weaker with each post. But I sympathise with you: it's hard to find good arguments for inherently wrong opinions.