Author Topic: Official Balance Thread  (Read 3451 times)

Ancient Mob

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2013, 03:51:43 pm »
Aero i think that you should introduce new spells based on other two attributes. & i don't think that you should remove the invisiblity & passive damaging concept. instead nerf it..& other two attributes need some working now..they should be buffed. & even though you remove or change the passive damaging & invisibility concept. It will be still unbalanced as its not just invisibility. The magic damage over usage is the main problem. If you will take a look in spells.. There are lots of spells based on int & magic damage. & galeoth is totally magical damage based hero. & changes also should be made in item sets. following are some ideas for item sets
Phodom's set- return damage should be there(if know you already have used it in 1-2 items but they are not working properly, I already posted about soldier's set in bugs section, it disappears when we use it. & strange stump is not powerfull item. But it can be used as a phodom's set but then it should be improved & should be available in 7/8/9 chapters) & you can also use a different type of return damage which is fixed & based on strength/hp regeneration or max hp. Current hp may cause too much confusion. so that should be avoided.
& in case of Fradz set you can use attack speed boost instead of lighting based on int. For example- every attack increases Fradz attack speed if he is hitting same target. If the target is changed the boost reset to 0. Or only a simply change can also be made in current set i.e. instead of int the health is restored on the basis of strength. As its goin with concept also.
I have some ideas for spells also. I'll post them if you are interested.

For those how think that in some sets heroes are overpowered - you got op phodom or others after give up usage - but before you have to do a lot to earn sufficient amount of money (atleast Ch.6 I suppose), or you got them easy-walkthrough using invis-aura and afk... omg isn't it boring? If you think that in such battles (with normal creeps and mini-bosses) you'll easily benefit from such strategy - then why not to try **** when you don't have a chance to revive using lifes? Why do heroes in some complicated buildorders and ultimate sets have to be counted as overpowered? Don't forget that this campaign is not only for those how spend 10000 hours on it already but for the first-timers also.
In other words I mean if you know how to build really powerfull heroes - just use **** mode, the question about moving after the target with invisibility and burning it - it is even more boring than using cheats...
When I mentioned about using of all 3 characters - I meant special epic and elite events when such invisible tactics in most cases sucks hard.
If you'd nerf such things - you will found out that the campaign became completable only for the "some kind of experienced" players - no attraction for new-comers as it'd be too complicated.

P/S I'm pretty sure that I made a lot of mistakes in this post - sorry it is late night for me already
Hey bro why don't you try int build & start a new game may be then you will get my point. & even you start new game without any give up. Int phodom will still be op then strength phodom. & I think that primary attributes should be main characteristics of hero. The way I see phodom should be tank hero. But just for fun the game should allow us to try different build. But that does mean that other attributes should be op then primary attributes. For example- int phodom is better in every aspect then strength phodom. & I've already said before that its not invisibility which is creating unbalance its not chapter. Its the magic damage. There is over usage of int & magic damage. How come phodom(strength hero) & Fradz(agility hero) have so many spells based int & magic damage. & galeoth(intelligent hero) have not even a single spell which is based on other attributes. & the spells based on int are way too powerfull then agility/strength. For example-heaven's bless/blessing of lighting & lots of more. Which can be combined with items available in game. Like, forgotten amulet + heaven's bless/seal of resurrection. both int based spells.
Blessing of lighting + three paths, again int based spell. Btw idk its a bug or not but in version 1.9 the so called aoe spell(flash strike) based on agility is not aoe it just work on single target unlike teleport strike. & also Fradz have only one ultimate based on agility, & have 2 ultimate based on int. Which I have not tried but seems powerfull then teleport strike, as in boss battles half of times teleport strike gets wasted as bosses becomes invulnerable.

If you'd nerf such things - you will found out that the campaign became completable only for the "some kind of experienced" players - no attraction for new-comers as it'd be too complicated.
Hahahaha, c'mon dude i am the new comer here, & you are the 'experienced one'...& the current position with all these unbalances are not any attractions for new comers, instead they will find the campaign unbalanced/bugs/not challenging.


the question about moving after the target with invisibility and burning it - it is even more boring than using cheats...
When I mentioned about using of all 3 characters - I meant special epic and elite events when such invisible tactics in most cases sucks hard.
Well i've already said before that all 3 can be made invisible in battle field. & its not cool & challenging.
& yes its boring to exploit the bugs/unbalance, that's why i posted here so that it should be balanced. Which you don't even want to be nerfed... :-X
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 05:58:28 pm by Doomlord »

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2013, 04:42:39 pm »
I've ignored 99% of sent post to me last 2 weeks. I haven't yet fully recovered.  :o

Actually I am refering to this balance issue.

Magical Hammer basically surpasses all other abilities in the same category with its multiple benefits including mana burn, stun, aoe damage in return for landing a successful hit with a unit target and a delay of 1 sec. I dare to say that no player would bother selecting a different ability during any of their playthroughs.

My suggestions:

A/ Move it to the AoE category.

B/ Nerf it as you see fit.

Ancient Mob

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2013, 06:03:01 pm »
why not to try **** when you don't have a chance to revive using lifes? Why do heroes in some complicated buildorders and ultimate sets have to be counted as overpowered?
In other words I mean if you know how to build really powerfull heroes - just use **** mode,
If something is unbalanced it should be fixed & balanced..As if changing difficultly level was solution then this topic wouldn't be existing..did aero told you that you should play on easy level if you think that lizard boss is hard..? NO. He suggested that how it can be fixed !

Aeroblyctos

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 12:11:30 am »
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As everything dies way too fast..
How so?

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in chapter 6 killing zor'zo/ xod /dark messiah was child's play..
Why? What makes them too easy? Your difficulty?

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I had aura of fire lvl 1.. I gave magic balls & other magic damage items to phodom just to check that how it works. You won't believe me its was damm easy. All I did is gave unholy cloak to phodom as it gives you permanent invisibility. Just click Z on target. & go for snack break. When you come back you'll see that poor mini bosses are dead. & btw why would I'll use my other 2 characters if I have 1 op char. I didn't used even fire cloak or didn't had high level aura of fire at that time. & btw even if I have to use all there chars I can make my whole team invisible, right from chapter 6. Where all char meet.
You didn't answer my question before. Does the bosses attack back to you? I mean do you just stand there killing the bosses and they don't attack back to you?

I can easily make it like there won't come any damage if you're invisible. Is that the problem here?



The last version should've made the 'warrior' builds stronger. I mean now there's that critical chance too and critical damage was improved.



Why Phodom needs return damage to his ultimate set? I could just put / create a new item for that. A lot easier.



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How come phodom(strength hero) & Fradz(agility hero) have so many spells based int & magic damage. & galeoth(intelligent hero) have not even a single spell which is based on other attributes.

Because of the story. Phodom is a warrior type of dragon slayer who uses his hammer. As every dragon slayer must have mastered one element, Phodom has learned fire. Now in the game I've tried to give many builds as possible. The first step is to decide between magic or strength. About same goes to Fradz.

Galeoth in other hand has always been a mage and will be. Galeoth is build a little other way than the other two heroes. He will always be int, but you can still make him attack or magic based.

The magic damage will always win that's pretty much calculated. But it shouldn't be too strong compared to 'warrior' type of abilities. You can make your basic abilities do from 10,000 to 20,000 damage in the end. Strength or agility based abilities will do 10,000 damage. Let's take an example based on Impact Flare and Meltdown.

Impact Flare:

50 str + 25 agility + 1 level: 75 x 5 + 1 x 200 = 575
150 str + 75 agility + 10 level: 225 x 5 + 10 x 200 = 3125
500 str + 250 agility + 20 level: 750 x 5 + 20 x 200 = 7750

Meltdown:

300 magic damage + 1 level: 300 + ( 1 x 200 ) = 500
1500 magic damage + 10 level: 1500 + ( 10 x 200 ) = 3500
5000 magic damage + 20 level: 5000 + ( 20 x 200 ) = 9000

Okay, it seems like the strength based ability can't even reach 10,000 but so didn't magic damage. But if you have any magic damage & bonuses things start to look way different.

I could make it like int doesn't give magic damage at all. Or what is the way to fix this? I can't increase the damages more or the campaign becomes too easy.

Magical Hammer basically surpasses all other abilities in the same category with its multiple benefits including mana burn, stun, aoe damage in return for landing a successful hit with a unit target and a delay of 1 sec. I dare to say that no player would bother selecting a different ability during any of their playthroughs.

Aah, that one. It's already fixed:

Conjures a hammer above an enemy, hitting it after 1 second. When the hammer hits, it deals damage to the target and nearby enemies stunning them for 2 seconds.
|c00FEBA0EHotkey: Q.
Type: Target.
Cooldown: 12 seconds.
|c00E55BB0Damage is based on Ability Level and Magic Damage.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:55:07 am by Aeroblyctos »

Ancient Mob

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 03:48:33 am »
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How so?
lots of sources of magic damage, & powerfull spells based on magic damage.

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Why? What makes them too easy? Your difficulty?
They are too easy just for int based phodom not strength based phodom.

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You didn't answer my question before. Does the bosses attack back to you? I mean do you just stand there killing the bosses and they don't attack back to you?
I did replied to this, but because of some reason. That post no longer exist,anyways so the answer is NO, they can't Attack me, they just run like chickens. All I have to do is to get them to a corner.

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I can easily make it like there won't come any damage if you're invisible. Is that the problem here?
If you do so then zocmo's set will be useless,& it may result in some other unbalances. Btw what about unholy cloak's permanent invisibility..? Idk its bug or not. As the item set- is not giving invisibility(unholy set/eternal set). That should be fixed. & the main problem is magic damage & int  over usage not invisibility.even without invisibility the characters are more stronger if they play as int hero. As it is being used everywhere.



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The last version should've made the 'warrior' builds stronger. I mean now there's that critical chance too and critical damage was improved.
That's what I am talking about, improving other elements of game for balance.



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why Phodom needs return damage to his ultimate set? I could just put / create a new item for that. A lot easier.
I just gave you idea that how changes can be done, to reduce the usage of int everywhere. Both phodom & Fradz have int based set. Which goes with int skill build, I mean why would anyone will play them as strength/agility heroes. If there is no use of these attributes in their own set.


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Because of the story. Phodom is a warrior type of dragon slayer who uses his hammer. As every dragon slayer must have mastered one element, Phodom has learned fire. Now in the game I've tried to give many builds as possible. The first step is to decide between magic or strength. About same goes to Fradz.
yeah but that doesn't mean that int based element skill should be op then other element skills.
To balance this thing, you can make aura of fire based on level of character & level of spell. Just like fire mastery element skill.

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Galeoth in other hand has always been a mage and will be. Galeoth is build a little other way than the other two heroes. He will always be int, but you can still make him attack or magic based.
I don't know how one can play galeoth as attack based hero, you know that I am already having hard time figuring out the reason I should play Fradz & phodom as attack based hero. & you are saying that galeoth can be played as attack based hero..

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The magic damage will always win that's pretty much calculated. But it shouldn't be too strong compared to 'warrior' type of abilities. You can make your basic abilities do from 10,000 to 20,000 damage in the end. Strength or agility based abilities will do 10,000 damage. Let's take an example based on Impact Flare and Meltdown.

Impact Flare:

50 str + 25 agility + 1 level: 75 x 5 + 1 x 200 = 575
150 str + 75 agility + 10 level: 225 x 5 + 10 x 200 = 3125
500 str + 250 agility + 20 level: 750 x 5 + 20 x 200 = 7750

Meltdown:

300 magic damage + 1 level: 300 + ( 1 x 200 ) = 500
1500 magic damage + 10 level: 1500 + ( 10 x 200 ) = 3500
5000 magic damage + 20 level: 5000 + ( 20 x 200 ) = 9000

Okay, it seems like the strength based ability can't even reach 10,000 but so didn't magic damage. But if you have any magic damage & bonuses things start to look way different.
But hey did you noticed that its a lot easier to get magic damage then strength/agility. I mean 4000 magic can obtained by just a single item gilmax, but 400 strength in single item I don't know. & it is possible to increase magic damage in percentage from lots of items. Which result in very high magic damage at high levels.for attributes I don't see how we can do same.

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I could make it like int doesn't give magic damage at all. Or what is the way to fix this? I can't increase the damages more or the campaign becomes too easy.
But then galeoth will be weak. As hes already a fragile hero. well you can increase usage of attack power & the overall difficulty level also. Or lots of things can be done.I'll try to get you in chat. when I am on pc, now I am on mobile. So I am  having really hard in posting. N btw you should connect the alchemist profession with int attribute, just like dig & stealing are...

Btw i forgot to tell to about an epic awesome item. ORB OF DEGENERATION. That item also gives passive area damage..& unlike others its is my best item with which i can damage even INVULNERABLE Bosses, & The another best part is that you don't even have to carry it in your inventory.. As it gives buff. So just keep it in box.Muahahaha [-)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 07:59:59 am by Shinokyofu »

TrueZozi

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 06:14:42 am »
why not to try **** when you don't have a chance to revive using lifes? Why do heroes in some complicated buildorders and ultimate sets have to be counted as overpowered?
In other words I mean if you know how to build really powerfull heroes - just use **** mode,
If something is unbalanced it should be fixed & balanced..As if changing difficultly level was solution then this topic wouldn't be existing..did aero told you that you should play on easy level if you think that lizard boss is hard..? NO. He suggested that how it can be fixed !

Don't you see the difference between OP enemy and OP character? :o :o
This was my suggestion because in any case you have to kill the lizard VERY FAST as far as his unavoidable spell was like @one-action-death@. That's why I think that it should be nerfed. On the other hand you mentioned that all int heroes are much more stronger then primary attribute phodom and fradz. Have you read the changelog of the last version? Even if it was unplayable for me from the end of the Ch 2, I've realized the potential benefit of critical damage. Both for fradz and phodom the balance of the game changed significantly - even on the Ch.1 with ultimate lucky box item you can go to the earlier risk fights on hard difficulty and won it.

Your arguments were about invisibility-boring-stay'n'damage possibility of walkthrough. And I laughted a lot about 3 invisible heroes during the battles ;D ;D It is like you say that dota is imbalanced because you earn 1 gold per 1 sec so you can just stay for 10000 second and earn 10000 gold and it is op :D
And as I've tried ultimate agility fradz and ultimate str phodom - I don't think that it was much harder to play. If you know the key how to beat something - good for you.

The question about the new version that was not actually tested - on the one habd the usage of int dependability in almost every dmg spell - on the other hand - str and agi increase critical strike potential significantly. It is all up to you how to play - with mgc dmg or with hand damage. In both situations if you think that something is too easy for you - just try **** or even hard mode.

I read some comments on hiveworkshop - and shared the opinion of some comments in my post.
You are the first who discovered unbeatable invisible strategy for sure ;D ;D ;D

P/S for my meaning of the word @new-comer@ you know too much about spells and item sets ::)
dunno if you mentioned it or not - something about santoryu blade - but this blade is for sure couldn/t be obtained by a @new-comer@ in my meaning of this word  ;)

But I totally disagree with the idea about nerfing the spell bonus damage from intellect - it is better to nerf the items bonuses if needed - something like increasing penalty for the item magic bonuses - like for the first 1000 bonus magic dmg - no penalty, for the second 1000 only 0,8 of actual bonus? for the third only 0,6 etc and the same for % of magic dmg - numbers could be changed as it is just an example. But if you'll nerf bonus from direct int - therefore main galeoth's attribute would be nerfed but fradz and phodom buffed (critical strike) - but I don't think that int is so op that such global changes needed.

But I totally agree with you about nerfing of PERMANENT invisibility because it affects not only stay-invis-and-kill style but also the other possible abusable situations.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 06:32:55 am by TrueZozi »
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Ancient Mob

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 08:55:51 am »
Quote
Don't you see the difference between OP enemy and OP character? 
This was my suggestion because in any case you have to kill the lizard VERY FAST as far as his unavoidable spell was like @one-action-death@. That's why I think that it should be nerfed. On the other hand you mentioned that all int heroes are much more stronger then primary attribute phodom and fradz.
hmmm so you do agree now that its OP character. anyways for me whether it is op boss or character,it have to fixed

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Both for fradz and phodom the balance of the game changed significantly - even on the Ch.1 with ultimate lucky box item you can go to the earlier risk fights on hard difficulty and won it.
i don't what makes you think that just improvment in critical damage & chance balances the int usage in character sets,spell book,skills,items.

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Your arguments were about invisibility-boring-stay'n'damage possibility of walkthrough. And I laughted a lot about 3 invisible heroes during the battles   It is like you say that dota is imbalanced because you earn 1 gold per 1 sec so you can just stay for 10000 second and earn 10000 gold and it is op
1st of All i have said ALOT of times that magic damage is the main problem not invisibity.& the example of gold doesn't make any sense to me sorry.

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And as I've tried ultimate agility fradz and ultimate str phodom - I don't think that it was much harder to play. If you know the key how to beat something - good for you.
i never said its harder to play. but just trying to show the over usage of int/magic bonus(i don't how many i have to say same things). & i never said anything about phodom ultimate, & for fradz i've already explained before in other post

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The question about the new version that was not actually tested - on the one habd the usage of int dependability in almost every dmg spell - on the other hand - str and agi increase critical strike potential significantly. It is all up to you how to play - with mgc dmg or with hand damage.
well its not just in character spells, its in spell book which can be upgraded, lots of items are available for magic damage & lots of items are also dependant on magic damage/int, & even character sets are also based on int... i am just critical based on strenght attribute will compensates & balances all

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I read some comments on hiveworkshop - and shared the opinion of some comments in my post.
You are the first who discovered unbeatable invisible strategy for sure
lets see where do aero  fit me in credit list.............jk :P:D

Quote
P/S for my meaning of the word @new-comer@ you know too much about spells and item sets
dunno if you mentioned it or not - something about santoryu blade - but this blade is for sure couldn/t be obtained by a @new-comer@ in my meaning of this word
lets just say that i like this campaign too much & really concerned ::) & No i never mentioned anything about santoryu blade. i have better items in mind like gilmax which gives +4000 magic damage & lots of more items ;D

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But I totally disagree with the idea about nerfing the spell bonus damage from intellect - it is better to nerf the items bonuses if needed - something like increasing penalty for the item magic bonuses - like for the first 1000 bonus magic dmg - no penalty, for the second 1000 only 0,8 of actual bonus? for the third only 0,6 etc and the same for % of magic dmg - numbers could be changed as it is just an example. But if you'll nerf bonus from direct int - therefore main galeoth's attribute would be nerfed but fradz and phodom buffed (critical strike) - but I don't think that int is so op that such global changes needed.
that's what i said, but i don't know about penalty. i mean that it may confuses first timers like me, instead the percentage gain of magic damage can be removed. if not totally, then atleast from items.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 10:07:04 am by Ancient Mob »

Pourquoi

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2013, 10:33:43 am »
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lets see where do aero  fit me in credit list.............jk
Aero doesn't update the credits, not anymore.
Along the shore the cloud waves break,
The twin suns sink behind the lake,
The shadows lengthen
In Carcosa.

Strange is the night where black stars rise,
And strange moons circle through the skies,
But stranger still is
Lost Carcosa.

Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in
Dim Carcosa.

Song of my soul, my voice is dead,
Die thou, unsung, as tears unshed
Shall dry and die in
Lost Carcosa.
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Aeroblyctos

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2013, 10:38:01 am »
Quote
lets see where do aero  fit me in credit list.............jk
Aero doesn't update the credits, not anymore.
I've never said that, I just haven't done that for so long. You know, it's boring to go topics all over again and take names to a list and then put to the credits. It's so boring but must be done every now and then.

Ancient Mob

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 11:09:44 am »
Quote
lets see where do aero  fit me in credit list.............jk
Aero doesn't update the credits, not anymore.
I've never said that, I just haven't done that for so long. You know, it's boring to go topics all over again and take names to a list and then put to the credits. It's so boring but must be done every now and then.
anyways i was not serious about that, i just want this campaign to be TOP...anyways pourquoi did you went through other comments? what do you think about it?

TrueZozi

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2013, 11:49:33 am »
Ancient Mob, sorry, but we are talking n different languages, I'm pretty sure. Ultimate str phodom and ultimate agi fradz - was about ultimate item set for both of them based on their main attributes. I mean that I've finished the campaign on hard with phodom tank/dd, fradz pure dd + lifestealer, galeoth - caster/tank with maximum items and sets possible. And their spell's dependance from int is really compensated with crit dmg - to show you directly what I mean I'll have to post a video here, like fast killer dd-fradz :-\
I wasn't talking about characters as OP - it was your vision, not mine, I've only underlined the difference between clear imbalance of AI-controlable enemy and a character with a many skill and item orders decided by the player himself. And I still do not think that it is OP in the way that you do. My suggestion was connected only with item bonuses not int-to-spelldmg mechanics.
And new-comer - it was not about the forum - it was about the campaign at all.

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Ancient Mob

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2013, 02:46:19 pm »
Ancient Mob, sorry, but we are talking n different languages, I'm pretty sure. Ultimate str phodom and ultimate agi fradz - was about ultimate item set for both of them based on their main attributes. I mean that I've finished the campaign on hard with phodom tank/dd, fradz pure dd + lifestealer, galeoth - caster/tank with maximum items and sets possible. And their spell's dependance from int is really compensated with crit dmg - to show you directly what I mean I'll have to post a video here, like fast killer dd-fradz :-\
I wasn't talking about characters as OP - it was your vision, not mine, I've only underlined the difference between clear imbalance of AI-controlable enemy and a character with a many skill and item orders decided by the player himself. And I still do not think that it is OP in the way that you do. My suggestion was connected only with item bonuses not int-to-spelldmg mechanics.
And new-comer - it was not about the forum - it was about the campaign at all.
oh sorry when you said ultimate strength phodom I thought you mean ultimate strength skill of phodom & same with Fradz, I didn't realised that you are saying about ultimate item sets. & i have said all this before also tha its not like strength phodom or agility Fradz are doomed. Anyways, I tried to explain you the unbalance related to int & magic damage. But idk why you are being so rigid here.
Well atleast the mighty map maker got my point. & anyone who will genuinely look into this will agree to what I said.

Aeroblyctos

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 04:27:10 am »
Okay, I got that the magic damage is too much and I've decided to reduce given magic damage from items by about 0% to 50%.

Btw i forgot to tell to about an epic awesome item. ORB OF DEGENERATION. That item also gives passive area damage..& unlike others its is my best item with which i can damage even INVULNERABLE Bosses, & The another best part is that you don't even have to carry it in your inventory.. As it gives buff. So just keep it in box.Muahahaha [-)
Where you get it?

TrueZozi

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 04:54:06 am »
Ancient Mob, you inspired me to play like that - with 3 int heroes [-)
Will post my view after the next version about it.

And yeah, remember this item also, orb of degeneration - even when some bosses become invulnerable and you just summon your boxes near him - the aura of degeneration slowly damages 'em ;D
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Ancient Mob

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Re: Official Balance Thread
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 05:24:53 am »
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Okay, I got that the magic damage is too much and I've decided to reduce given magic damage from items by about 0% to 50%.
can you please explain more..?

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Where you get it?
chapter 6 dig & its written BANNED with its name.