Author Topic: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?  (Read 2827 times)

Skasian

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Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« on: October 17, 2011, 07:54:33 am »
Firstly I'd like to say... OMFG this is an amazing effort - well done!

  • However the first 5 chapters I was able to kill everything on the map including the epic bosses. When I reached chapter 6, suddenly there are bosses lvl160??? wtf, half the bosses on the map are quadruple my level and no way can I even scratch them. What's with the HUGE difficulty jump from chapter 5 --> 6? (playing on normal)
  • You need to fix the Vampire Lord so that 'Fradz's Illusionary Double doesn't work on his 25% HP recovery ability. I.e. everytime he 1 hits the illusion he gains 25% HP back, which meant I had to sit Fradz out for the whole battle. Either way his still stupidly hard to beat compared to any of the other main quest bosses.
  • So who wants to tell me what I'm doing wrong in terms of they game getting stupidly hard all of a sudden, I'm talking about the whole of chapter 6 not just any 1 boss. Did I miss getting an important item or something? Or is there a crucial fundamental mechanic I don't know about the game?

GIVING UP
  • It takes a ridiculously long time to reload the prolouge and then setup all the characters again. There should be a button that says "Keep previous setup".
  • What is the point of 'Give Up' anyway?
  • You get to keep gold - Ok I spent pretty much nothing for the whole game and killing everything on the map including the epics yielded me 5000 gold. It's almost pointless carrying that over, makes no difference.
  • The gold you carry over is barely enough to make 2 x lvl1 synthesis items
  • Even if you were able to carry over 1000000 gold it wouldn't make a difference since the pieces for the synthesis items you don't get till later chapters so your carried over gold is still pretty useless. Plus you have to find all the pieces all over again!
  • I think you should be able to carry over all of your items including the boxes. That way you can collect the pieces you want and not have to spend another 10 hours trying to find each one off each mini-boss/spend ages stealing it.
  • Player-base wise, if you want lots of people to play your game you should avoid creating the situation where only a niche amount of players (i.e. the ones who are willing to spend weeks and weeks replaying the same campaigns) can enjoy it. You have no idea how frustrating it is to restart with no items after you worked so hard to get them in the first place. Analogously, take any WOW or any other RPG similar to that, how would it feel to play halfway through the game only to reaslise the ONLY way to enjoy all the features of the game is to restart from lvl 1. But when you restarted you don't even get to keep your items. I would instantly uninstall a game like that from sheer rage. I understand this map is currently in Beta, but I implore you to not KILL your own creation by limiting the amount of 'FUN' us 'casual' players can have.

TLDR: Awesome game, wanted to finish it but can't. Wanted to restart (GIVE UP) but pointless. 'Give up' gold saved is negligible. Let us CARRY ITEMS OVER IF WE GIVE UP!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 08:03:31 am by Skasian »

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Pourquoi

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 09:23:43 am »
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What is the point of 'Give Up' anyway?
To save your gold/Honor Points for another playthrough.
Quote
You get to keep gold - Ok I spent pretty much nothing for the whole game and killing everything on the map including the epics yielded me 5000 gold. It's almost pointless carrying that over, makes no difference.
I hope you do realise that you can SELL items. I only had about over 6k gold at first, but after selling all my items and using Give Up I got over 60k gold.
Quote
I think you should be able to carry over all of your items including the boxes. That way you can collect the pieces you want and not have to spend another 10 hours trying to find each one off each mini-boss/spend ages stealing it.
Equip +Steal Chance stuff. And use my useless Item List, too.
Quote
Player-base wise, if you want lots of people to play your game you should avoid creating the situation where only a niche amount of players (i.e. the ones who are willing to spend weeks and weeks replaying the same campaigns) can enjoy it.
After playing only twice, on my 3rd playthrough, I had enough money for all the synthesis items.
Quote
I understand this map is currently in Beta, but I implore you to not KILL your own creation by limiting the amount of 'FUN' us 'casual' players can have.
Then play on Child's Play.
Along the shore the cloud waves break,
The twin suns sink behind the lake,
The shadows lengthen
In Carcosa.

Strange is the night where black stars rise,
And strange moons circle through the skies,
But stranger still is
Lost Carcosa.

Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in
Dim Carcosa.

Song of my soul, my voice is dead,
Die thou, unsung, as tears unshed
Shall dry and die in
Lost Carcosa.
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Aeroblyctos

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 01:58:57 pm »
First of all, I like criticism. Let's see what you got here.

Quote from: Skasian
However the first 5 chapters I was able to kill everything on the map including the epic bosses.
Then you must be really good player. Elite and Epic Bosses should be very very hard for a first timer(or the game fails that they're not strong and unique enough).


Quote from: Skasian
When I reached chapter 6, suddenly there are bosses lvl160??? wtf, half the bosses on the map are quadruple my level and no way can I even scratch them. What's with the HUGE difficulty jump from chapter 5 --> 6? (playing on normal)
Yea well I pretty much realised that too when I was playing. Levels doesn't actually tell anything. I could easily and quickly re-arrange all boss levels. So start to throw some bosses which you think were too hard. Also remember that almost all of the bosses in this chapter have some tricks and tactic is need to beat them. Sometimes they seems to be superb but they actually aren't.


Quote from: Skasian
You need to fix the Vampire Lord so that 'Fradz's Illusionary Double doesn't work on his 25% HP recovery ability. I.e. everytime he 1 hits the illusion he gains 25% HP back, which meant I had to sit Fradz out for the whole battle. Either way his still stupidly hard to beat compared to any of the other main quest bosses.
Yea I was having really hard time with that boss. Now I removed the whole recovery thing it was buggin too badly.


Quote from: Skasian
So who wants to tell me what I'm doing wrong in terms of they game getting stupidly hard all of a sudden, I'm talking about the whole of chapter 6 not just any 1 boss. Did I miss getting an important item or something? Or is there a crucial fundamental mechanic I don't know about the game?
Nothing. I didn't get too good items and I was having hard time with some bosses. I was playing with normal difficulty as well. Vampire Lord and the dragon boss were just too strong I couldn't beat them. Those will be fixed at least. I was able to beat with **** items Narsi, Xod and Fudo. I'm not sure about others.


Quote from: Skasian
It takes a ridiculously long time to reload the prolouge and then setup all the characters again. There should be a button that says "Keep previous setup".
Are you sure about this idea? When I usually select things it just takes few minutes nothing more. Of course I'm now not talking about the ridiculous loading times.


Quote from: Skasian
The gold you carry over is barely enough to make 2 x lvl1 synthesis items
One guy had after 2 or 3 give ups 600,000 gold. That's pretty much. The best items at the moment costs about 10k to 20k.


Quote from: Skasian
Even if you were able to carry over 1000000 gold it wouldn't make a difference since the pieces for the synthesis items you don't get till later chapters so your carried over gold is still pretty useless. Plus you have to find all the pieces all over again!
Yea, well, that's for the balance. It would be stupid to have the best items in the beginning of the game(the best items are really imba). Also the give up is actually meant for players who want to reveal more about the story by beating the strongest bosses in the game.

Of course this at the moment fails because player is not able to complete the game. If player would see the end and all that mind **** in the end then there would be a bigger chance actually try to play the campaign again and see what's going on. You'll get the basic idea how the story goes by just completing the main quests.

Those optional stuff tells you more about the background and more about the dragons.


Quote from: Skasian
You have no idea how frustrating it is to restart with no items after you worked so hard to get them in the first place.
I have played a lot of different kind of singleplayer RPGs and so far I haven't see a RPG where you can load your equipment from previous save.


Quote from: Skasian
Player-base wise, if you want lots of people to play your game you should avoid creating the situation where only a niche amount of players (i.e. the ones who are willing to spend weeks and weeks replaying the same campaigns) can enjoy it.
I like to make games that are easy to learn but hard to master. With Easy and Normal difficulties player should be able to complete the whole game without much trouble(I don't mean Elite and Epic bosses).

...So how do I avoid creating the situation where only a niche amount of players? Give me some ideas.


Quote from: Skasian
Analogously, take any WOW or any other RPG similar to that, how would it feel to play halfway through the game only to reaslise the ONLY way to enjoy all the features of the game is to restart from lvl 1. But when you restarted you don't even get to keep your items. I would instantly uninstall a game like that from sheer rage.
WoW is a massive multiplayer online role playing game and this is a singleplayer RPG. Anyway you're able to do that in a little other way: for example with gold you can buy very good equipment already in chapter 1. With good items from shops you can beat already all the mini-bosses in that chapter. And once you have beat all the mini-bosses you have enough of good items to beat the elite and epic bosses.

For example look this picture by Killa.

http://www.tcocampaign.com/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=9

He's pretty tough. Shame I don't have anymore that picture when he had like 2000 hit points and he was only level 1!


Quote from: Skasian
I understand this map is currently in Beta, but I implore you to not KILL your own creation by limiting the amount of 'FUN' us 'casual' players can have.
How do I kill my own creation? How do I take the fun away? By making some bosses player is not able to defeat in the first play through? Doesn't that make player want to try again increasing the life span of the game? The game is build that way and I see it pretty cunning.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 02:03:18 pm by Aeroblyctos »

Skasian

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 08:31:05 pm »
Wow fast replies thanks guys :)

My apologies if my post sounded rude and impudent, I made the post in a moment of RAGE and ANGER when I had to restart after playing soo many hours.

I think many of the issues that I posted can be address simply by something you have already mentioned briefly that is:

Make the game so that someone playing on Easy/Normal can actually finish the MAIN story line (not the side bosses) on a single playthrough

That way people who want the extra storyline or the powerful items can go back and GIVE UP and get the items they want, while people who just want to admire your work can see all the 10 chapters that you put 3 years of your life into. I'd really like to see the last 4 chapters play out but I can't :(  .

Some important fixes I think you need to address and I know that other's have mentioned it before in other threads:

  • The Vampire Lord's lair needs not be locked in. (i.e. the door shuts when you engage fight). I seems that a common solution to beating the game is to SELL ALL YOUR ITEMS and give up. Right now I'm stuck inside the lair and can't sell my items, and can't beat the boss cause of the Fradz illusion bug I mentioned before so now I'm stuck giving up with 6000 gold and 12 full boxes which I can't sell :(    <--- the reason for my rage
  • I'm not sure if warcraft has such a function to program in but perhaps something like hitting the SPACEBAR will skip to the next line of dialogue. As others have mentioned, anyone who was raised in a english speaking country can read 3 times as fast as the text changes.
  • I saw in another thread that you were getting a friend to help you with the dialogue. You need to fix a lot of it as there is poor "story writing" english scattered throughout the dialogue, furthermore the stuff the characters say are really childish and seem like a lazy effort at trying to be funny.
  • Bugs scattered all over the game but there is a whole subforum for that so I'm not going to go into it, and I understand it's a BETA still so that is to be expected. Nevertheless, Great work! Keep it up!

Pourquoi

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 11:46:35 pm »
Quote
I'm not sure if warcraft has such a function to program in but perhaps something like hitting the SPACEBAR will skip to the next line of dialogue. As others have mentioned, anyone who was raised in a english speaking country can read 3 times as fast as the text changes.
I know of a similar system in HeroRPG where that's possible, but I really doubt if that could be re-created. I do agree with you though, the dialogues need to be faster. I skipped all the dialogues and just read them in WE since it takes too much time.
Quote
the stuff the characters say are really childish and seem like a lazy effort at trying to be funny.
I think Aero just likes this kind of humour.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 06:10:28 am by Chimto »
Along the shore the cloud waves break,
The twin suns sink behind the lake,
The shadows lengthen
In Carcosa.

Strange is the night where black stars rise,
And strange moons circle through the skies,
But stranger still is
Lost Carcosa.

Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in
Dim Carcosa.

Song of my soul, my voice is dead,
Die thou, unsung, as tears unshed
Shall dry and die in
Lost Carcosa.
TCO Item List

AdmOrian

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 02:14:26 pm »
I agree occasionally things bug or are too hard which is why I on occasion have been known to hack the game a little (or a lot, I have played through with completely new characters of my own design!).

But some simple stuff you can do when you get frustrated and want to quit is just to make things a little more easy and fun, some of the cheats in the game are as follows.

Spoiler (hover to show)


Now if you want to take it a bit further ask Aero for a copy of the game that can be opened in the editor this does a few things for you. 1. if a puzzle is giving you too much problems or you can't find that last dig spot you can check for it. 2. If something happened and you should have gotten an item but didn't you can open the next chapter you will go to and just place it on the ground! 3. If you really want to try something new or make an item you can! (Note: the complex mechanics many of Aero's items use require triggers but some don't!) Their is a slight curve to learning to use the editor so if you need help with something feel free to ask!

The only other thing I would like to say is that you don't have to replay any chapter or even the prologue if you liked the items you had last time or your original setup, you can instead just select chapter 1 and start with the setup you had last time. I know the loading times are killer but Aero really is pushing the limits of the game engine to make things totally awesome!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 04:00:47 am by Aeroblyctos »

Aeroblyctos

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2011, 04:06:29 am »
Quote from: Skasian
Make the game so that someone playing on Easy/Normal can actually finish the MAIN story line (not the side bosses) on a single playthrough
So what exactly stopped you? What boss?

Quote from: Skasian
The Vampire Lord's lair needs not be locked in. (i.e. the door shuts when you engage fight). I seems that a common solution to beating the game is to SELL ALL YOUR ITEMS and give up. Right now I'm stuck inside the lair and can't sell my items, and can't beat the boss cause of the Fradz illusion bug I mentioned before so now I'm stuck giving up with 6000 gold and 12 full boxes which I can't sell
Yea well that's why I always use 5 saves that I reuse. You can always start the chapter from beginning, go to first shop, sell everything and start from the beginning.

I don't like that player is able to escape from boss fights and that's why I close the gates behind. Good or not a good idea?

Quote from: Skasian
I'm not sure if warcraft has such a function to program in but perhaps something like hitting the SPACEBAR will skip to the next line of dialogue. As others have mentioned, anyone who was raised in a english speaking country can read 3 times as fast as the text changes.
It is possible to do something like this but it's too time confusing to make such a system. I could make some dialogues faster.

Quote from: Skasian
I saw in another thread that you were getting a friend to help you with the dialogue.
I had many helpers in the past, some were good some not that good.

Quote from: Skasian
You need to fix a lot of it as there is poor "story writing" english scattered throughout the dialogue, furthermore the stuff the characters say are really childish and seem like a lazy effort at trying to be funny.
Like what?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 04:08:20 am by Aeroblyctos »

AdmOrian

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2011, 10:11:55 am »
It's good to stop people from exiting boss fights, elite, and epic fights but the mini-bosses should never lock.

Skasian

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2011, 02:14:50 am »
So what exactly stopped you? What boss?

The Vampire Lord, solely because of the 25% heal bug when he kills any of Fradz's Illusions

Quote from: Aero
Yea well that's why I always use 5 saves that I reuse. You can always start the chapter from beginning, go to first shop, sell everything and start from the beginning.

I don't like that player is able to escape from boss fights and that's why I close the gates behind. Good or not a good idea?

As the previous poster mentioned, locking in elite and epic boss fights makes sense and that's a good idea. But bosses that are part of the main story line I'd think twice about. Although it wouldn't be so much of a problem provided that there was no bug on the vampire lord as I previously mentioned. Also I only got locked in because I wasn't expecting to be locked in. Scattered throughout the game are mini-bosses and bosses where you DO NOT get locked in of any sort, thus I was surprised when I got suddenly locked in.

If you are going to lock someone in at least do what you have with the elite and epic's. I.e. Pop up a message "Are you ready for Epic Boss Fight?" <--- straight away the player knows to save before hand and he will be locked in.


Quote from: Aero
It is possible to do something like this but it's too time confusing to make such a system. I could make some dialogues faster.

Do that then, it is far to slow, even for a slow reader like myself. I found the only way to keep myself from dying of boredom between the text is to act out the scene myself and speak as if I was performing a play :D

Quote from: Aero
I had many helpers in the past, some were good some not that good.
I'd be happy to go through and fix spelling and grammatical errors - well the ones I find anyway (there are so many scattered throughout the dialogue and even in item descriptions). Except I wouldn't know how to get involved since I've never done map-making before.

Quote from: Aero
Like what? (is not funny)
I'd prefer not to offend your sense of humour in the game is that is what you like. After all different people have different humour, what I find childish, the next player could find hilarious so I don't think I have the right to criticize what you made.

------------------------------

Additionally I'd like to point out, I restarted the level and sold all my items for 30k gold and started again. So I'm giving the game another chance since I do like what you have done. The game has much potential and I'm going to continue supporting it. :)

Things that annoy me at the moment.
  • Accidentally killing bosses before stealing the items I need for a set :(   Although that is not your fault, just me forgetting to steal.
  • Not being able to find the 10th dig site on a map or the last mini boss on a map so I can't 100% it :(  Obsessive gaming disorder!
  • Incomplete wiki for when I need to look up some information/explanation on a game mechanic :(
  • Chapter 6, after a corridor of 300 armor golems you enter a series of rooms with 4 teleporters. I've played around ages in there and there seems to be no exit? What is the point of this? Is it a bug?. Also the demons that spawn in these rooms can continue to spawn to no end. I ended up having 15 demons in one room when I teleported into it and guess what... they have 10% bash on attack so with 15 of them I was permanently stunned and died 10 times using up all my lives and I couldn't do a thing about it (can't potion or even move). You've got to limit how many can spawn in a room so that the perma-stun thing cannot happen as this instantly game-overs the player no matter how tank their character is.


Pourquoi

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2011, 05:05:48 am »
Quote
Incomplete wiki for when I need to look up some information/explanation on a game mechanic
It's just the fault of those lazy arses who was in favour and/or volunteered to help, but then suddenly disappeared without a trace. I'm going to close it anyway.
Quote
Chapter 6, after a corridor of 300 armor golems you enter a series of rooms with 4 teleporters. I've played around ages in there and there seems to be no exit?
Each circle either:
1. Spawn some Dream Eaters.
2. Returns you back to the 1st level.
3. Moves you to the next level.
4. Does nothing.
You have to memorise the circles that moves you to the next level.
Quote
I'd be happy to go through and fix spelling and grammatical errors - well the ones I find anyway (there are so many scattered throughout the dialogue and even in item descriptions). Except I wouldn't know how to get involved since I've never done map-making before.
Just report them here.
Along the shore the cloud waves break,
The twin suns sink behind the lake,
The shadows lengthen
In Carcosa.

Strange is the night where black stars rise,
And strange moons circle through the skies,
But stranger still is
Lost Carcosa.

Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in
Dim Carcosa.

Song of my soul, my voice is dead,
Die thou, unsung, as tears unshed
Shall dry and die in
Lost Carcosa.
TCO Item List

AdmOrian

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2011, 01:07:04 pm »
Yes, stealing is sometimes easy to forget or worse yet Really hard to do.

As far as editing grammar just as you play make a list of which dialogue it was and the error when you have made the list of changes needed post it and aero will eventually fix them!

I still recommend asking Aero for the editable version of the campaign so you can just open it up and look around the maps and find the object or dig spot you missed (they are easiest food by using the region palette.)

As far as game mechanics you just have to mostly observe an adapt as an avid gamer I am sure you have been forced to do that in a plethora of games!

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 10:53:29 am »
Quote
Chapter 6, after a corridor of 300 armor golems you enter a series of rooms with 4 teleporters. I've played around ages in there and there seems to be no exit?
Each circle either:
1. Spawn some Dream Eaters.
2. Returns you back to the 1st level.
3. Moves you to the next level.
4. Does nothing.
You have to memorise the circles that moves you to the next level.
I think that's for the Nightmare mini-game and he is referring to that other teleport puzzle(bugged?) in which your prize is the item Opportunist.


"You know trolls, big and tough. Poke 'em with anything and they cry like a baby--those big babies."

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Disclaimer: I'm tired and I'm sleepy.

AdmOrian

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2011, 12:34:48 am »
It's not bugged H_T_L you just keep trying different circles that lead somewhere until 1 day it ends, not sure the mechanic I just move lol! Works every time just takes a little bit more time.

Skasian

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 04:00:14 am »
Yes I am referring to the other teleporter puzzle.

There seems to be no pattern as far as I saw. There are 12 rooms in total to teleport to arranged in a 3x4 rectangle. I only visited 6 of the rooms before being randomly teleported to the end. Clueless as to how the 4 circles work. Need some sort of 'hint' so they play knows if they are on the right track/doing the right thing.

(The dream eater puzzle was easy).

On a side note, the deathless puzzle was annoying for me as I am colourblind as are a lot of other males. Since males make up the majority of gamers, it would be nice to not discriminate us from telling the difference. A simple name change to "Yellow Deathless", "Blue Deathless" etc... so when we click on it we can tell which colour they are would be nice :P
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 08:25:41 pm by Skasian »

AdmOrian

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Re: Game is too hard? Or am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2011, 11:44:37 am »
lol Skasian that deathless puzzle is SOO good it maxes the level of your party and ensures max stacks on any stacking items. If anything it's too good don't change a thing lol!